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60 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 sponsoring and lecturing at a conference at the New York 2 Academy of Medicine. And while I was speaking there, there was 3 an attendee I did not know about named Dr. William Thetford. 4 When I gave my introductory talk it seemed that how I put 5 certain phrases about healing being of the mind interested him 6 very much. He felt it was either very relevant to almost 7 quotes of the document that he subsequently presented me with. 8 MR. FABIAN: Objection, your Honor, the witness 9 testifying to the thoughts and how Dr. Thetford testified. He 10 is dead. 11 MR. ROSENBERG: Your Honor, it's background 12 information. 13 THE COURT: Overruled. 14 Q. The point is this is how you met up to meet Dr. Thetford? 15 A. The point is it was kind of magical to me. 16 Q. What happened that led you to Dr. Thetford? 17 A. A friend of mine who was a fellow professor, he was at 18 Newark College of Engineering, Dr. Douglas Dean, was talking to 19 Dr. Thetford after I was on the podium. And Dr. Thetford 20 invited him and me as friends and colleagues to visit him and 21 his associate, Dr. Helen Schucman, at Columbia University 22 School of Physicians and Surgeons. 23 MR. FABIAN: I don't mean to keep objecting, but if 24 we're going to take it as background, I'll understand, but it 25 is hearsay. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
61 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 THE COURT: Yes, of course. 2 MR. ROSENBERG: It's not hearsay. It's not introduced 3 for the truth. It's what Dr. Thetford told her to go meet him. 4 Q. Did you meet Dr. Thetford? 5 A. Yes, I did. 6 Q. Did he arrange for you and -- is it Dr. Dean? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. To meet with Dr. Thetford and Dr. Helen Schucman? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Where did the meeting take place? 11 A. In the faculty lounge, which is also a teacher's dining 12 room. 13 Q. What was the date of the meeting? 14 A. May 29, 1975. 15 Q. Who was present at the meeting? 16 A. At the luncheon was present Dr. Douglas Dean, myself, 17 Dr. Helen Schucman and Dr. William Thetford. 18 Q. And would you describe briefly what happened at the meeting 19 in the teacher's lunch room? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Tell the Court what happened, what was discussed at this 22 meeting? 23 A. Well, we were just having general conversation. Truthfully 24 I had no idea why I was there. And I was hoping we could 25 sponsor some research at Columbia School of Physicians and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
62 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Surgeons about fields that we were interested in. 2 Q. Did you discuss that with Dr. Schucman? 3 A. She wasn't very interested in it. I brought it up. She 4 wasn't very interested. 5 Q. From what you she told you, what you learned, what was her 6 position at the time? 7 A. She was an associate of Dr. Thetford's in the Department of 8 Psychology at the School of Physicians and Surgeons. 9 Q. What was Dr. Thetford's position from what you learned from 10 him? 11 A. He was head of the department. 12 Q. What else transpired from this meeting in the lunchroom? 13 A. It was a bit confusing for me, and I felt a little out of 14 sorts when suddenly not understanding why I said it, it just 15 came out of my mouth to her, so you're hearing an inner voice, 16 are you. 17 Q. You said this to whom? 18 A. I said this to Dr. Schucman. 19 Q. You're hearing an inner voice; what did Dr. Schucman 20 respond? 21 A. She was shocked and she held on to her colleague's arm and 22 he started to laugh and said, we're going back to our office 23 now. 24 Q. What happened next? 25 A. We went back to their office -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
63 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. Let me break this down. It's a court proceeding. I don't 2 want to get more objections. 3 Who was present at the office? 4 A. Present at the office before I entered it was Dr. Douglas 5 Dean, Dr. William. 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Dr. Douglas -- 7 THE WITNESS: Dean. 8 Q. D-E-A-N? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Who else was at the office? 11 A. William Thetford, Helen Schucman. And outside the door 12 they pulled the shades down, as it was a glass window, and we 13 went in. And then they locked the door, and then they 14 introduced Dr. Kenneth Wapnick who was in the office. 15 Q. So Dr. Wapnick was there as well? 16 A. In the office, yes. 17 Q. A lot of doctors; Dean, Thetford, Schucman, Wapnick and non 18 doctor, Judith Skutch Whitson? 19 A. Then Judith Skutch. 20 Q. That's right at that time you were married to Robert 21 Skutch? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Your name was Judy Skutch? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. Tell us what happened at this meeting, who said what to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
64 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 whom and how you responded? 2 A. To the best of my recollection, Bill and Helen didn't -- 3 may I call them Bill and Helen? 4 Q. I think that's okay, if you will confirm Bill refers to? 5 A. Dr. William Thetford. 6 Q. Helen? 7 A. Dr. Helen Schucman. 8 Q. Ken, if that comes up? 9 A. Dr. Kenneth Wapnick. 10 Q. Tell us what happened. 11 A. Bill and Helen said they have some story to tell and Helen 12 was nervous about the story being told, started to launch in 13 interchangeably they would inject things in each other's story. 14 Q. They being? 15 A. Helen and Bill. And they told me the story about how they 16 had been working together for quite a few years, and that it 17 was under different circumstances because academia at best is 18 not easy and that publish or perish I think came from academia. 19 And that the whole group they were working with was always 20 frought with battles and discontent and disease, and their own 21 personal relationship was very jarring since they too did not 22 get along very well. 23 One day, as an impassioned plea that they try 24 something different, Bill Thetford put out his hand to Helen 25 and said there has got to be another way, what we're doing SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
65 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 isn't working, the relationships are very bad, it's causing 2 anxiety to all of us. 3 Q. This is what he and Helen told you at this meeting? 4 A. This is what they told me. 5 Q. What else did they say? 6 A. And he said there must be a better way of living in the 7 world. 8 Q. Now, at this point he is citing to you his story? 9 A. She is telling me his story and she is adding in and then 10 he would speak and then she would add something interject. 11 Q. And what happened next? 12 A. She told me, she followed it, she said, it really surprised 13 me because instead of being combative or critical of this 14 impassioned statement, which was very unlike him, that she put 15 out his hand to reach his, and she said I don't know what a 16 better way it is that you're talking about, but whatever it is 17 I'll help you find it. 18 Q. And did from what they told you at this meeting on May 29, 19 1975, did the better way manifest itself? 20 A. Well, they told me many more details but eventually they 21 got to the end of the story, and I knew by this point that she 22 had been, she called it the receiver or the scribe of a very 23 unusual manuscript, which was the antithesis of everything she 24 believed as a scientist. She was very embarrassed by it. She 25 was apprehensive about letting me see it, but Bill had SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
66 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 convinced her that this material needed to be shown to me. 2 Q. Briefly what did Dr. Schucman tell you about the process by 3 which this manuscript had been created? 4 A. She told me it was very surprising in the sense that she 5 felt she literally heard an inner voice. And that that 6 particular voice would speak as if she said inner dictation was 7 more the way she described it. And then one night after many 8 other kinds of let's call them paranormal experiences, she got 9 up and couldn't sleep, and she felt that that inner dictation 10 said to her please take notes, this is A Course in Miracles. 11 Q. That's what she heard, she was reciting what she heard in 12 her head? 13 A. She felt -- she was very distressed by this because she 14 treated people who heard things. And she called up 15 Dr. Thetford who was at his home, and he said look, we have 16 been having so much going on with this interest recently, why 17 don't you just do what it says. 18 Q. Meaning? 19 A. Take down the notes. 20 Q. From what Dr. Schucman told you from this meeting, did she 21 take down the notes? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. In what form? 24 A. In a shorthand notebook, her own form of shorthand which 25 was some words and some little symbols that she knew how to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
67 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 decipher. She had once taken Gregg or Pitman, I don't remember 2 which. 3 Q. Did Dr. Schucman or Dr. Thetford tell you to process what 4 happened in these notepads that Dr. Schucman was writing down 5 in what became the manuscript? 6 A. They both told me -- 7 MR. FABIAN: I'm sorry, are we still on the same 8 conversation? 9 MR. ROSENBERG: Yes. 10 MR. FABIAN: I couldn't hear you. 11 MR. ROSENBERG: I'm sorry, this is very distracting, 12 Your Honor. Can I take one minute and try to move this? I 13 keep feeling like I'm going to trip on it. 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 (Pause) 16 Q. Did Dr. Schucman and Dr. Thetford tell you the process by 17 which Dr. Schucman taking these notes down became the 18 manuscript? 19 A. They told me that she would take down from her inner 20 dictation what it said. She called it the voice. And the next 21 morning she would come in to the office where they would lock 22 the door and pull down the shade, just as they had when I 23 arrived. 24 Q. I want to talk to you about that. Did they tell you why 25 that date they pulled down the shades and locked the door? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
68 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 A. They said they wanted complete privacy. 2 Q. Did they tell you as they recite the story why they pulled 3 the shades down every day and locked the door when they came 4 into their office? 5 A. As part of the story, yes, later on. 6 Q. What did they tell you at this meeting? 7 A. Yes, but it was very clear from the conversation which, 8 unfortunately, I can't reconstruct, that she was terribly 9 upset, very anxious and embarrassed by all of this. 10 Q. By this voice? 11 A. By the story that was being told to me. She was not happy 12 with her scientific image being compromised. 13 Q. She was a professor at Columbia? 14 A. Yes, she was. 15 Q. What did she and Mr. Thetford tell you happened with the 16 writing and the manuscript process? 17 A. She would dictate it and she would type it up. They had 18 quite a manuscript going. They didn't know what it would be 19 but they kept on going. 20 Q. Did they tell you how long a process it was that they wrote 21 it down and typed it up? 22 A. Over seven years. 23 Q. What happened next at this meeting in their office on May 24 29th? 25 A. Well, after they finished their story, which by the way SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
69 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 didn't surprise me too much because I had been studying things 2 like that for many years, Dr. Thetford said to Dr. Schucman 3 well I think we better show it to her now, which, of course, I 4 had been eager to see, meaning the manuscript, The Course of 5 Miracles. And he went to his filing cabinet and took out a key 6 and opened it up and pulled out seven thesis binders, a pile, 7 and he put one of them on my lap and the others next to me. 8 MR. ROSENBERG: Hold for one second. 9 With the Court's indulgence, I'm going to propose a 10 procedure for this. So the record is clear, I have on our 11 counsel table, and the witness will identify, these are the 12 seven thesis binders that have the manuscript. 13 It is not my intention to burden the court with all 14 seven notebooks. What I would do is we made an excerpt of 15 about 25 pages from one of the volumes because there may be 16 issues of different formating, but to give the Court 1500 17 pages, we didn't think it was necessary. 18 MR. FABIAN: I'm not sure we need to authenticate 19 these documents, but I would ask the Court though if you could 20 have at least deemed marked the entire transcript because it 21 seems to be very relevant. I understand they don't want to 22 have the Court hold on to it, but we can have it as 23 representative of it. But the record will reflect that all 24 seven binders being 1500 binders. 25 Q. By my count we may have eight or nine, are you positive it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
70 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 was seven? 2 A. I'm positive. 3 MR. FABIAN: There are seven. 4 Q. How many binders were there? 5 A. There were seven they gave me. 6 MR. ROSENBERG: I'm going to approach the witness, if 7 I might. 8 Q. I'm going to show you one of the binders. I haven't picked 9 it in any particular order and ask you if you can identify what 10 that is? 11 A. Yes, I can. This is one of the copies of the manuscript, 12 the original manuscript. 13 Q. Is this actually one of the originals? 14 A. Yes, it is. 15 Q. With all respect, it smells musty. Where has it been 16 stored? 17 A. I'm afraid it does. It has traveled many places. 18 Q. I'm now placing a different one of these black thesis 19 binders in front of you, and ask you if you would open it and 20 tell us what it is? 21 A. This is the first of the set of thesis binders that holds A 22 Course in Miracles, the document in manuscript form. 23 Q. Is this one of the number of notebooks that was shown to 24 you by Dr. Thetford and Dr. Schucman that day? 25 A. Thesis binders, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
71 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. These black binders that are piled up here. 2 A. Yes. 3 THE COURT: Let's mark these. I take it is going to 4 be Plaintiff's 3-1 through 3-7. 5 MR. ROSENBERG: What we were hoping is since these are 6 the originals -- 7 THE COURT: You're going to keep all of your exhibits. 8 MR. ROSENBERG: We're going to mark these 3 through 9 however many they are. I'm going to mark this Exhibit 4. 10 THE COURT: These are typical excerpts, I take it? 11 MR. ROSENBERG: I'll have the witness identify. 12 Q. This is Exhibit 4, Ms. Skutch Whitson, and I would like you 13 to identify for the Court, this is comparing it to the Exhibit 14 3-1 notebook that you have in front of you. 15 Is that the first 25 pages? 16 A. Well, yes. 17 Q. And it is on eight and a half by 11 inch paper, correct? 18 A. It seems to be, yes. 19 Q. And this was the form in which you received it that day, 20 correct? 21 A. I received it in this form that day. 22 MR. ROSENBERG: Witness pointing to the thesis binder 23 3-1. 24 Q. Would you concur there is no copyright notice affixed to 25 either Exhibit 3.1 or 4? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
72 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 A. There is not. 2 Q. And that was true on the day that you received the number 3 of thesis binders in May, correct? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And each of them were in these heavy, hard black covers 6 that were shown, it's quite a heavy pile of manuscripts; is 7 that correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What did you do on May 29th when you were handed -- who 10 handed it to you? 11 A. Dr. Thetford handed it to me. 12 Q. What did you do when you received it? 13 A. The first thing I did was put this volume on my lap because 14 I wanted to see what they were talking about. I opened it up 15 and saw a huge table of contents just for the volume. And they 16 asked me to read the introduction, which I did. And I just sat 17 there very moved. 18 Q. What's the first two sentences from the first volume here? 19 A. This is the introduction. 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. "This is a Course in Miracles, it is a required course." 22 Q. The next line? 23 A. "Only the time you take it is voluntary." 24 Q. Please go on? 25 A. "Free will does not mean that you can establish the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
73 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 curriculum. It means only that you can elect what you want to 2 take at a given time. The course does not aim at teaching the 3 meaning of love, for that is beyond what can be taught. It 4 does aim, however, at removing the blocks to the awareness of 5 loves' presence, which is your natural inheritance. The 6 opposite of love is fear. What it is all encompassing can have 7 no opposite. 8 This course can, therefore, be summed up very simply 9 in this way. Nothing real can be threatened; nothing unreal 10 exists. Herein, lies the piece of God." 11 Q. Did you read that that day? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 Q. And what was your reaction? 14 A. Something like this. 15 Q. Can you described that in -- 16 A. I was very moved. I could hardly speak. It seemed to 17 speak to me in a way that I recognized. That's all I can say. 18 Q. What did you say to Dr. Thetford, Dr. Shucman, Dr. Dean or 19 Dr. Wapnick, the assemblers in the office. 20 A. Dr. Dean didn't say much at all through the meeting. 21 Dr. Wapnick was quite silent in the background. Dr. Schucman 22 and Dr. Thetford took the lead in the story telling. 23 Q. Were you given at that meeting a copy of the manuscript? 24 A. Yes, they told me I could take the whole set home and they 25 gave it to me in a shopping bag. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
74 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. All of these numerous thesis binders? 2 A. That's right. 3 Q. Were you given any directive by either Dr. Schucman or 4 Dr. Thetford about what you could or couldn't do with it? 5 MR. FABIAN: Objection, your Honor. This is hearsay 6 that goes directly to the issue of -- 7 THE COURT: I understand it is hearsay. Overruled. 8 MR. ROSENBERG: We're not introducing it for the 9 purpose necessarily of the truth. It's what instruction was 10 given which is always outside of the hearsay rule because it 11 shows people's state of mind and what they are instructing 12 others. 13 Q. Tell us who, if it was Dr. Thetford or Schucman, that said 14 what you could do with the course? 15 A. It was obviously at that point for me alone -- 16 Q. My question is what did they say to you? 17 A. Dr. Thetford said I could take it home overnight and look 18 at it. And Dr. Schucman said that that was okay, but I was not 19 to give it to anybody, and that they would speak with me the 20 next day. 21 Q. Were you married at the time? 22 A. Yes, I was. 23 Q. To whom? 24 A. To Robert Skutch. 25 Q. Did your ability or not to show it to Robert Skutch, your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
75 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 husband come up at this meeting? 2 A. No, it didn't. 3 Q. Did you ask whether you could show it to your husband? 4 A. I don't believe I did. 5 Q. Now, the instructions were you could take it for the night, 6 you weren't to give it to anyone else, and then you would talk 7 to them tomorrow? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. What did you do when the meeting ended? 10 A. Well, I took a taxi home. They were up on 165th Street in 11 the Black Building at the time, and I got a taxi and I was very 12 excited. And I was so excited that I asked the cab to stop and 13 wait for me a few moments on Broadway, and I called up my 14 friend, Dr. Gerald Jampolsky in California. 15 Q. Dr. Gerald Jampolsky, another doctor. What type of doctor 16 was he in 1975? 17 A. A psychiatrist. 18 Q. Is he a trained certified psychiatrist? 19 A. Oh, yes. 20 Q. Do you know what institution he attended? 21 A. Yes, he went to Stanford. 22 Q. Did you have a collegial dealings with Dr. Jampolsky prior 23 to this date? 24 A. Yes, he had a very deep interest in this field. I had met 25 him at a conference on parapsychology. He asked whether my SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
76 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 daughter could be a subject in some of his work, and whether he 2 could work with some of the people in California that we worked 3 with like Maimonides Hospital in New York City. 4 Q. What was your purpose of calling Dr. Jampolsky on this cab 5 ride? You actually asked the cab driver to pull over to the 6 side of the road. What was the purpose of the phone call? 7 A. Well, it was dual purpose really. Number one, I was so 8 excited I couldn't contain my enthusiasm; and number two, he 9 was the best person I knew to give me an assessment, number 10 one, on the story I just heard, and number two on some of the 11 material. And I actually read him a portion of the teacher's 12 manual on the telephone. 13 Q. How much did you read him? 14 A. Maybe a page or two. 15 Q. You didn't show it to him? 16 A. He was in California. 17 Q. He didn't have a copy at this point? 18 A. No. 19 Q. What did you say to Dr. Jampolsky during this phone call, 20 and what did he say to you? 21 A. Well, from what I remember, I said to him that this was 22 extremely exciting to me, and I felt that I had been given 23 something that was going to be for the rest of my life. And 24 from what I remember, he noted on the telephone number, one, he 25 had a patient waiting, and, number two, that I'm enthusiastic SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
77 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 about a lot of things. 2 Q. He was in some ways teasing you, well, you're always 3 enthusiastic? 4 A. Yes, and he said he would really like to see it to examine 5 it and how soon could I get to California. 6 Q. Did you have authorization at that time, May 29th, to show 7 that manuscript to Dr. Jampolsky? 8 A. To show it to him, no, I did not. 9 Q. Was there anything else of substance that you can recall 10 being discussed? 11 A. No, I cannot. 12 Q. What did you do next? 13 A. I went to my apartment in New York City with -- 14 Q. You went to your apartment? 15 A. With the seven thesis binders in a shopping bag, and I 16 started to read them. 17 Q. Was anyone else home at the apartment? 18 A. At that moment, no. 19 Q. What happened next that evening in regards to this 20 manuscript you had been given? 21 A. Well, my husband came home from work, and I think my 22 daughter probably came home from her music lesson and I made 23 dinner. 24 Q. How old was your daughter? 25 A. She was 16. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
78 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. And did you discuss this with your husband or your 2 daughter? 3 A. I told my husband that I had received this manuscript and 4 he saw the thesis binders I was very excited by it, and he 5 looked at it and he was not interested. 6 Q. Did he read any portion or anything more than looking at 7 the cover? 8 A. Like that. 9 MR. ROSENBERG: Witness, your Honor, opened the 10 manuscript, shook his head and closed the manuscript. 11 Q. That's what your husband did? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Other than the little glance that you described, did he 14 read the manuscript? 15 A. No. 16 Q. What did you do next that evening in respect to the course? 17 A. I read, I read, and I read for a good bit of the night. I 18 stayed up very, very late. And I can't say I understood what I 19 read, but it reinforced the reading to me of the impact of the 20 document, and that this was something that I had to go through. 21 Q. And you testified earlier that when you left Dr. Schucman 22 and Dr. Thetford that they said you could have it for one night 23 and you were to meet with them again the following day? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did that happen? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
79 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Where did you meet? 3 A. To the best of my recollection in our apartment on Central 4 Park West and 81st Street. 5 Q. Who was present at this meeting? 6 A. Dr. Kenneth Wapnick, Dr. Helen Schucman and Dr. William 7 Thetford. 8 Q. Did you have an understanding at this time from what they 9 told you of what Dr. Wapnick's role was in this group? 10 A. I don't think at that time I really did understand. He was 11 a colleague and, obviously, very deeply involved in this but he 12 didn't say much. 13 Q. Later you learned of his role and involvement? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You understand that Dr. Wapnick will appear in this Court 16 later in the proceeding? 17 A. I certainly do. 18 Q. Tell us what happened at the meeting; what happened and who 19 said what and what your response was? 20 A. It was a fairly enthusiastic on my part discussion telling 21 them how the bit that I read was so moving to me, and I was in 22 awe of how she, Helen, could possibly receive this material and 23 how she could write it down and type it up after all of those 24 years. That that type of focus and commitment was quite 25 startling to me, and that I had read a great many of this type SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 |
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